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Comment Archives: stories: Home + Design: Real Estate

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Howdy GA-Man, [and that's Charlie. It's only Charles on bills and checks.]

You say "Yes there are two schools of thought on this but...(if we know a better way, etc.) I'll eat my shoe..."]
"I would believe your arguments if..." is quite amusing also.

I respect your right to an opinion. As far as "obstructionism," nope, we're not it. We have proposed alternatives in every case. However - despite your salutation "The Grownassman abides," you don't seem to abide at all. Each and every one of your comments has an insult or two, and this one is no different. Because you have no case, you must resort to calling us names. "Endless" hyperbole. "Non-stop" hyperbole.
Why don't you name your "majority" group? Maybe "Coalition for Approving Everything No Matter What."
I'm done with you here - you're just bitter. I know you like to have the last word, so I hope you enjoy having it.

4 likes, 10 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 07/06/2019 at 2:08 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Hello Charles,

I would believe your arguments if the following weren't true.

The democratic party did not hold up every project that came down the pike when the progressives were running things. And let's not split hairs just about everyone involved in all the Coalitions Against Everything are eyeballs deep in progressive politics or are outright former members/administration folks. Democrats didn't put up endless lawsuits when they lost the vote on projects over the 30 years they were out of power. Every project of a certain scale can always be found to have technical errors but the Democratic party didn't feel the need to call all of them out over the last 30 years. They just took it on the chin and persevered. Now that the democrats are in power it's non-stop obstructionism. Every major development has had protests and delays or threats to do so by progressive oriented folks. They include the mall redevelopment, Cambrian Rise, City Hall Park, Memorial Auditorium, The Champlain Parkway and on and on.
Yes there are two schools of thought on this but 50% plus one is the fairest way to decide things which you don't respect. If you can name a decision making process that respects majority will that's better than this I'll eat my shoe but sometimes one school of thought wins and you have to deal with it which is what your side doesn't want to do.

The Grownassman abides

8 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by imagrownassmanbtv on 07/06/2019 at 12:35 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Hello again, Mr. Man,
The "endless lawsuits" you complain about are actually based on facts - promises broken, permits violated, etc. You would like things to move in a simple, straight-forward manner, but they do not. The big building project was based on a number of qualifications for its height-exception (and size of project). It was to provide parking, it was to construct in a timely fashion, it was to make intentions clear when plans were changed. The system is not being perverted to annoy you.
In New York City, this would not be a skyscraper, but in Burlington it would. Look at the old Hotel Vermont, on the West corner of the Flynn block, facing the Park. Picture a building twice that height. Plan BTV itself had advised that buildings not be that tall, yet we made an exception for Mr. Sinex, and he in turn was to provide certain amenities, upon which he reneged. Thus the suit. It all makes sense. We shall see what happens, won't we? I agree that the people should decide, and if you recall, the project was only passed by a majority of 4%. It seems that there are two schools of thought on this.

4 likes, 14 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 07/02/2019 at 10:25 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Charlie, it may not be what you like but if the zoning is already there then it'd be a great addition to the tax base. Another tall building would bring in significant amounts of tax dollars to a city that continually taxes and spends at a very progressive rate. This is no idle concern with a potential 5% tax increase coming this upcoming fiscal year and in a city that has one of the highest tax rates in the country per $1,000 dollars of assessed value at 2.6% when the national average is 1.1% to 1.2%. Yes our tax bills are priced at more than double the national average.

https://vermontbiz.com/news/2019/june/18/b…

We simply need more tax payers and businesses to pay for our growing town budget. The Coalition against everything will reflexively oppose the development of this property if recent history repeats itself even if the majority of people vote for it or their city council representatives because the Coalition Against Everything knows better and will get hung up on the process or some aesthetic fiddle faddle. As for skyscraping, come on Charlie, no one in America would consider a 14 story building a skyscraper except the sky is falling crowd you represent. Let the people decide Charlie and god forbid they might disagree with you but holding projects up with endless lawsuits and appeals is no way to respect the will of the people or the duly elected city council.

18 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by imagrownassmanbtv on 07/01/2019 at 7:40 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

I'd love to see the church selling the lot for top dollar, developing it as the the developer sees fit, and gave the entirety of the sale price to the victims of the clergymen's sexual deviance.

9 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Scuba on 06/29/2019 at 7:35 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Mr. McGill,
I do know what you mean - if it was empty, like the block next to it, I'd say it was fine. Having TWO ten story buildings next to each other is, in my opinion, too much. New buildings rarely have any kind of affordable housing ($500-$700 rent) because they're paying off the bank. You're right about the location being convenient. It's the skyscraping of the City that is the problem. A few years back they put together "Plan BTV" which allowed four to six story buildings. Then they decided to make a little exception - a big exception, actually. [I won't try to tell the whole tale; perhaps you know about it.] We do need blocks like that because of the trees, but we do also need a lot of affordable housing. I agree about the concert venue thing.
Thanks for a cogent letter!

6 likes, 9 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 06/29/2019 at 6:20 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Mr Messing, how is housing within easy walking distance to public transportation, a major grocery store, three drug stores, half a dozen stores that sell furniture or home supplies, all you can eat Iin terms of restaurants, several parks, not to mention lots of other housing whereby community networks are built, count as "the worst place" to build housing? I love Burlington, but Burlingtonians can get some weird ideas. It's also in one of the few areas that can go above four stories to ten stories. With two government building right next door it could even take cars off the street. But of course what we really need is yet another concert venue for mediocre bands who can barely book a paying gig in any other town, or an art gallery to highlight some rich kid's earnest sculptures made from recycled freaking whatever. Cause yeah, that's how cities work.

26 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by Mac McGill on 06/29/2019 at 4:35 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Maybe somebody could buy it, tear it down, and leave an empty hole.

24 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by The Oracle on 06/29/2019 at 9:07 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

My apologies, Mr. Moran,
There must be some confusion - I haven't been ragging on the Plant - perhaps on the allocation of funds? Or its historical value? Something published a year ago? Anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone, and all else I've talked about lately is far more important. Sorry.

6 likes, 15 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 06/27/2019 at 12:11 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Charlie Messing's constant Moran plant rag is tiresome

16 likes, 5 dislikes
Posted by Sean Moran 1 on 06/27/2019 at 11:41 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

"While the trees are nice, honey locusts are a short lived species, and on a long enough timeline (certainly one that could be considered a 'historic' timeline) the Grove is ultimately doomed. "
Well, ultimately we are all doomed. Long enough timeline indeed.
As for housing, I can't think of a worse place for it. No, wait - the Moran Plant would be worse.

9 likes, 11 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 06/27/2019 at 10:50 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

Priced for a build out? Come on, to repurpose this building will turn developers away based on a total price tag of 9 or 10M+. Where does the Diocese come up with their hypothetical projections based on as developed? Housing and Conservation can't touch that, tax credits options are ruled out based on a highly inflated appraisal for mixed use development. This building will sit based on unrealistic numbers.

17 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Reenie Phillips on 06/27/2019 at 9:36 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

and if I hear Coyne itching about money again...nice little price for the mini plot. As for the Church itself- was never anything like the original- cold and uncomfortable- maybe it could be a huge lifeguard tower for the new swimming hole which was once the mall? That what it seems to be becoming of late from the deal with the mayor and his snakeskin peddler Sinex.
I am much more concerned with Mount- St. Mary's thank God the Bishop's hands aren't involved in that transfer.

14 likes, 2 dislikes
Posted by Sean Moran 1 on 06/27/2019 at 8:21 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

While the trees are nice, honey locusts are a short lived species, and on a long enough timeline (certainly one that could be considered a 'historic' timeline) the Grove is ultimately doomed. While perhaps architecturally unique, that doesn't make it beautiful. Personally, I always thought it looked a bit like a cross between a a house of God and some sort of dark Satanic Mill. The industrial production of superstition to put it brutally. We run the risk of declaring so many things special that nothing ever gets done. We desperately need housing, as evidenced by the sheer number of homeless people who tend to populate this idyllic Grove, and engage in far less socially acceptable behavior than playing with their dog. The article makes no mention of that. We need housing close to the commercial core. Period.

32 likes, 4 dislikes
Posted by Mac McGill on 06/27/2019 at 7:22 AM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

The point is - what do we want Burlington to be like? Did you come here for the skyscrapers? I didn't. They'll block the lake from hundreds who can see it now. There are two schools of thought, no doubt. We shall see.

8 likes, 29 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 06/26/2019 at 9:55 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

No one is going to pay 8.5 mil unless they can get a return on their investment. Just hope that who ever buys it knows that the small group of goodkindites will stop every move just because.

33 likes, 8 dislikes
Posted by Ted miles645 on 06/26/2019 at 7:55 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

"A tree falls the way it leans. Be careful which way you lean.
Dr. Seuss, The Lorax

16 likes, 1 dislike
Posted by timwithat on 06/26/2019 at 3:39 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

I too wish Sinex would buy it, if he runs out of funding before anything comes down.

I strongly disagree with "there are plenty of parks in town." Especially after City Hall Park is reduced to a play plaza (with no playground). We do need the trees, but why not build on the parking lot? Zoning for a ten story building covering that whole block? Fooey.
[Mr. Assumptions?]

8 likes, 26 dislikes
Posted by Charlie Messing on 06/26/2019 at 2:42 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

I understand that Don Sinex is interested in it.

13 likes, 12 dislikes
Posted by Davito Martino on 06/26/2019 at 12:24 PM

Re: “Priced for Scale: $8.5 Million Listing Could Limit Options for Burlington Cathedral

The location is great, the landscaping is truly pretty but lets be honest the architectural worth of the actual building is worthless.

41 likes, 8 dislikes
Posted by Borg Gora on 06/26/2019 at 11:15 AM

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