'Unravelling' Fosters an Honest Dialogue on Mental Health

Kurt White and Mary Wilson Credit: Courtesy

Kurt White was fed up with how people talk about mental health. As a trained clinical social worker and therapist with two decades of experience, he knows that the subject can be far more uncomfortable and messy than the polished sound bites and tidy conclusions that dominate media coverage.

“A lot of reporting on mental health is a little bit lacking,” White said. So, last year, he began thinking about how deeper, more honest public conversations around mental health would sound — and how to spark them.

White is the vice president of community partnerships and communications at Brattleboro Retreat, a nonprofit mental health hospital. As his vision for fostering a fresh dialogue around mental health crystallized, he decided to start a podcast. The therapist enlisted the help of the hospital’s communications and media relations manager, former journalist Mary Wilson, and they launched “Unravelling” in June.

“Our sweet spot is often right at the intersection of mental health and [how] people are experiencing it.” Kurt White

Six months in, the podcast is off to a strong start, with more than 1,800 downloads on Spotify and Apple. In its 15 episodes, it has touched on an array of subjects related to emotional well-being, from the nuances of gender-affirming care to family estrangement. Leaning on White’s training as a therapist and Wilson’s as a journalist, “Unravelling” explores mental health from both clinical and personal perspectives.

“Our sweet spot is often right at the intersection of mental health and [how] people are experiencing it,” White said.

White and Wilson typically spend at least two episodes on each topic they cover. One is dedicated to speaking with an expert in the field, while the other focuses on someone with lived experience. White said the two-pronged approach helps “Unravelling” avoid two major pitfalls: It ensures individuals’ experiences are not inappropriately generalized and prevents the “othering” of those facing mental health challenges.

Last month, “Unravelling” spent three episodes covering eating disorders. In the first two, White and Wilson spoke with Emmeline Clein and Anna Shechtman, who have both written memoirs about their struggles with disordered eating. In the third episode, the hosts shifted their approach, zooming out for a discussion with Brattleboro Retreat postdoctoral psychology fellow Mary Iellamo about cultural narratives of eating disorders and innovations in their clinical treatment.

White’s interview with Shechtman exemplifies the complexity — and discomfort — that he and Wilson often navigate as hosts. Their conversation on the author’s 2024 book, The Riddles of the Sphinx: Inheriting the Feminist History of the Crossword Puzzle, ranged from the history of feminist resistance to the paradoxes of anorexia.

“I had zero expectations going in, and it turned out to be one of the most rewarding conversations I’ve had about the book,” Shechtman told Seven Days. “It felt as though Kurt and I were able to talk about not just every aspect of the book but the web of connections between each idea — all without ever forgetting or sacrificing the human component.”

Rather than forcing neat answers, Shechtman and White embraced contradiction and dissonance. When talking about the relationship between feminism and anorexia, for instance, Shechtman admitted she doesn’t have “a clear sense of whether the anorexic is a feminist figure or an anti-feminist figure.”

A woman with anorexia could be seen as “staging an anti-patriarchal protest,” she suggested, “because she refuses to allow her body to be sexualized.” Or, she went on, such a woman could become an anti-feminist figure through her desire “to dominate and beat all other women at the very [thing] that women are so oppressed and assessed by: their weight.”

Shechtman concluded that neither extreme encapsulated her experience, although both periodically surfaced.

“Kurt’s questions felt really genuine. There were times when I wasn’t sure what the answer was,” Shechtman admitted, but she added that White’s comforting style allowed the two to “work towards our own mutual understanding and find these raw insights into the underlying phenomena I was writing about.”

Near the end of the interview, White asked Shechtman what she would say to someone currently struggling with an eating disorder.

After taking a moment to collect her thoughts, Shechtman responded, “I would just want to acknowledge how hard they’re working to be so many things that are in direct conflict with each other [and] promise that there is relief in recovery.”

Looking back on the interview, Shechtman said, “No one’s ever asked me [that]. It wasn’t a question I was prepared for, and — borrowing from the tremendous compassion Kurt was modeling — I almost started crying.”

White attributes some of the show’s strength to the hosts’ ability to draw on their respective backgrounds. “The combination of a journalist and a therapist is a really nice way to do this,” he said.

White said his professional training has heavily influenced his interview style and dedication to shaking up listeners’ perspectives.

“Much of what [therapists] do is help people see their own lives through many different points of view,” he said. “There’s a real parallel [with the podcast]. If we can make familiar topics unfamiliar again in a particular way, maybe we can have that same effect.”

Meanwhile, Wilson, who spent a decade as a TV news anchor and won a New York Emmy Award for her work at an ABC affiliate in Albany, harnesses her journalism background to keep the podcast’s conversations accessible. Her experience has given her an ear for narrative flow and shaping each episode as an arc.

“It’s been a great joy and a great outlet to continue that process from journalism of storytelling, interviewing, learning something new and passing it on,” Wilson said.

The podcast has a national and international following and has been played in 25 countries. “It’s really incredible,” White said. “I’ll get a text from someone somewhere in the Midwest saying, ‘I really needed to hear this episode’ or that they’re moved by something.”

He and Wilson have no plans to slow down anytime soon. “We keep a list of ideas that we have about the show, and it’s a mile long,” White said. “They’re not all going to turn into episodes, but I think as long as we’re still feeling creative and there are interesting questions to engage with, we’ll probably keep on doing it. There’s a whole world that we’re just starting to touch on here.”

“Unravelling” is available on all major podcast platforms.

The original print version of this article was headlined “Talk Therapy | Brattleboro Retreat’s “Unravelling” podcast fosters honest conversations about mental health”